Much as I love the Middle Ages, perhaps you need to make the distinction that you're not recommending we go back to Bishops weilding maces or abject poverty for the 99% of the population that are neither noble nor ecclesiastical. :) It's certainly true that the Church had the corner market on culture, but it was a tiny corner! Quality control is always easier when few have access to the means of production.

Just some thoughts. Keep ranting.

I'm pointing to the notion that the Church had something of value that the culture wanted - i.e. not damnation in their case. Beyond that, you are absolutely correct. However, a mace would look really cool while preaching.

Can't you guys just talk about this at home in bed?

BTW,
My blog isn't listed on your blogroll.....we work at the same building for Mary's sake! You must list me unless......you're afraid. And maybe...I might add you. Maybe. Fuller.

The church has the function of answering the question implied in man's existence, and the meaning of this existence. One of the ways the Church does this is through evangelism. It must show to people outside the Church that the symbols in which the life of the Church expresses itself are answers. They answer the questions implied in the very existence of human beings generally, and of human beings awakened to their predicament by the disintegrative forces of industrial society.

Because the Christian message is the message of salvation, and because salvation means healing, the message of healing in every sense of the word is appropriate to our situation. That is the reason why movements at the fringe of the Church—sectarian movements of a most primitive and unsound character—have such a great success. Anxiety and despair about existence itself induces millions of people to welcome any kind of healing that promises success.

The Church cannot take this way. But it must understand that the average kind of preaching cannot reach the people of our time. They must feel that Christianity is not a set of doctrinal, or ritual, or moral laws. It is, rather, the good news of the conquest of the law by the appearance of a new healing reality. They must feel, too, that the Christian symbols are not absurdities unacceptable to the mind of our period, but that they point to what alone is of ultimate concern -- the ground and meaning of our existence and of existence generally

There remains a last question, namely, how the Church should deal with the spirit of our society, which is responsible for much of what must be healed by the Christian message. Has the Church the power and the task to attack and to transform the spirit of industrial society? It certainly cannot try to replace the present social reality by another one, in terms of progress to the realized Kingdom of God. It cannot sketch perfect social structures or suggest concrete reforms. Cultural changes occur by the inner dynamics of culture itself. The Church participates in them, sometimes in a leading role. But in that relation it is a cultural force beside others and not the representative of a new force in history.

In its prophetic role it is the Church which reveals demonic structures in society and undercuts their power by revealing them -- even within the Church itself.. And in doing so the Church listens to prophetic voices outside itself, in judgment both on culture and on the Church in so far as it is a part of culture. Most such voices come from persons who not active members of the manifest Church. But perhaps one could call them participants of a latent church."

Sometimes this latent Church comes into the open. Then the manifest Church should recognize in these voices the spirit of what its own spirit should be and accept them even if they are most hostile to the Church. But the Church should also stand guardian against the demonic distortions into which attacks must fall if they are not grasped by the right content of ultimate concern. Creating such a distortion was the fate of the communist movement. The Church was not sufficiently aware of its function as guardian when this movement was still undecided about its way. The Church did not hear the prophetic voice in communism and therefore did not see demonic possibilities.

Judging means to see both sides. The Church judges culture, including its own forms of life. For its forms are created by culture, as its substance makes culture possible. The Church and culture are within, not alongside each other. And the Kingdom of God includes both while transcending both.

Rob -

I hear you stating a descriptive analysis of "the way things are." I'm still looking for your "ought".

Where do you teach?

P.S. Don't you think your comments about Bell and McLaren are aphoristic and a bit extreme?

I have two comments. ( I know, I know-- I have a comment for everything)

1. "consumers rather than creators."
I love this quote. I would argue that our students are more consumers than inventors. Today's teens have so much access: Video games, high def TV's, movies, internet, ipods, music, etc.... I could keep going for another paragraph. Being a consumers can encourage laziness and a lack of imagination.

2. Robocop, what is your point? Maybe my reading comprehension is not up to your speed, but I am sitting here, trying to read your response and I am not sure what to do with it.

Jesse, you should take Rach's name off your blogroll, it's all me baby.
you are now "added"

Just found your rants page Brotha *insert Desmond accent*, so this comment is a bit belated. I agree that the Church needs to offer more value to gain a bigger foothold in pop culture. You hinted on what feeds the pop monster, it's truth. People love honesty. From Eminem to Seinfeld to Real World, when something is honest or at least portrays itself convincingly as honest then it is embraced.

To put it bluntly the Church isn't very honest right now. The magnify glass the media has put on the churches indescretions (particularly televangelist and catholic priests), it's lost credibility. Also the discrepancy between real followers of Christ and people that punch their "get into heaven free card" on sundays is enormous. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to find out the majority of Christians are hypocrits (and I'm not talking the we all make mistakes kind, I mean the living directly opposed to biblical concepts consistently type hypocrits).

I heard Derek Webb talking about the criticism he receives for partaking in pop culture and I really liked what he said, so I'll do my best to paraphrase it. He believes that since God is good and God is truth, that things that are horrible like most Christian bands are more offensive then say Bob Dylan who is a truth tellar. Even if Dylan is not speaking THE truth, at least it's his truth. And we shouldn't be too timid to see the differences and appreciate the similarities.

Imho the Church isn't going to be relevant culturally again, unless we take a que from a overused 90's phrase and "start keeping it real!!".

btw this is Dustin, had to use my fake google account..since i forgot my blogger pass. How ironic!!

"Chip" I couldn't agree more. I get so frustrated with fake Christians who would rather appear holy with their Christian paraphanelia than appear authentically unholy to the world. It is this pride that keeps the church from growing.

I concur, that the church is really going to struggle being relevant. We spend so much time and money on useless attempts to appear relevant that we have little to spend on the good, the true and the beautiful.

Surprisingly, it is the evangelical Christian who struggles with this the most. They used to be the ones who wanted to be the real Christ to the world. Now they hunker down in their religious "second life" and have little credibility with a world who does crave something real and fully other than what they have.

I do still value absolute truth over the individual's truth, but sadly Christians usually only like to follow half of it rather than embrace all of the message of the Gospel and thusly make it into a lie. The classic conservative political evangelical is a perfect example of this.

Cheers Mate. Your parents have organized our lives - its awesome.

Wow all I can say is that you are a great writer! Where can I contact you if I want to hire you?